Curse

garethporlest18 · Mar 21, 2008, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koross

Seriously, I thought the discussion on the ranger nerf would have ended with Sab's post that I quoted.

If those skills were better than they were before they were buffed, then maybe yes. Their 1 second cast time doesn't make them AWESOME HELL YES skills. But their 10 max damage makes them TERRIBAD CRAP skills. So basically they went from Bad to Slightly good, to Just remove from game please. I'm not saying they didn't need a damage reduction, I was doing +300 damage with them. Something down to +12-15 would have sufficed with the reduction of armor penetration I think.

pumpkin pie · Mar 21, 2008, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

And that's the problem with the metagame. Instead of letting people work out counters and letting these counters become dominant enough to force out the "flavor of the week" build, the build gets nerfed and the players go scavenging for the next overpowered thing again. Except that the metagame just remains unbalanced, and is "balanced" again by the next nerf.

Take the turret ranger, for example. That build has virtually no defense. Blocking works against it, hexes work, heck, even conditions do! The build has a ton of counters which, assuming a normally flexible metagame, would start getting used frequently enough to render turret rangers useless. Instead, the skills are changed, and the build, instead of seeing occasional play in the hope of catching an unprepared opponent, has effectively been broken into a state where no one will use it at all.

Sure, dervspike was hard to prot against, but the key point is that it was hard, not impossible. Prot Spirit could still catch what cut through Aegis and other blocking skills, and Shelter could do it on a party-wide basis. Dervspike was simply a reaction to the meta's over-reliance on blocking, and - since it wasn't an "auto-win button" - the meta should have been allowed to adjust to it and find the right counters for it.

But, hey, not like it matters now...

Well Said! i was going to say something along this line but you said it better.

Lets nerf knockdown warrior next, so that they can knock you down once every 5 minutes only.... mwahahahahaha :P~ because its ridiculously overpower, what is with the you staying on the ground while the warrior kills you with life stealing hammer mods + you unable to get up and dies within 3 strikes... so yeah, i can't find a way to counter that so , lets nerf it.

Arkantos · Mar 21, 2008, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tearz1993

MoC shouldn't have been nerfed like that imo... was a viable way to prevent the power leak on every air attunement since they apparently didn't like glyph canceling.

Pretty sure you can still use MoC to put up your attunement.

Quote:

Very true it seams....

I can only hope that in GW2 there is some MAJOR divide between PvP and PvE or it just won't be a game worth playing for those of us that are PvE players.

To be fair those of us that play PvE only could care less about balance in PvP and the "Meta" game can just die and await its rise in GW2.

To be honest, the current system is fine. PvE gets horribly overpowered pve skills and consumables. You also fight dumb AI enemies, which is generally easy. You just need to learn how to adapt. No matter what skills get nerfed, you should be able to continue easily playing.

xDusT II · Mar 21, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

It's unfortunate that everyone on the internet gets an opinion, because 95% of them comment on things they know nothing about, or blame ANet because they're an easy target. Not one change here was exceptionally drastic. Pewpew ranger's were only introduced around a month ago and people are already complaining that the games been ruined for them.

Arkantos · Mar 21, 2008, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

It's unfortunate that everyone on the internet gets an opinion, because 95% of them comment on things they know nothing about, or blame ANet because they're an easy target. Not one change here was exceptionally drastic. Pewpew ranger's were only introduced around a month ago and people are already complaining that the games been ruined for them.

Not to mention the reason those skills that were buffed were buffed for PvP purposes. PvErs got to run the buffed skills because of PvP, but they don't care. They just care that their overpowered build is now pretty bad and blame PvP and ANet.

-Loki- · Mar 21, 2008, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Oh, I'm well aware of that, though I disagree with ArenaNet's decision to do so (instead of, say, listening to BOTH, or splitting the skill balances so there is a PvE and PvP version of each. But, well, Ursan says it all about how much they care about that).

There's no real way to listen to PvErs on skill balance when you want to keep PvP balanced. When a skill is overpowered in PvE, people laugh and kill more monsters, and still have fun doing what they were doing. In PvP, it totally destroys the fun in the competition. So the game has to be balanced around PvP. Sure, PvE'rs have a cry when something gets nerfed, but PvP'rs leave the game when something goes unbalanced for any decent amount of time. It's more damaging to Arenanet, financially, when PvP'rs leave, than when PvE'rs cry.

arcanemacabre · Mar 21, 2008, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

There's no real way to listen to PvErs on skill balance when you want to keep PvP balanced. When a skill is overpowered in PvE, people laugh and kill more monsters, and still have fun doing what they were doing. In PvP, it totally destroys the fun in the competition. So the game has to be balanced around PvP. Sure, PvE'rs have a cry when something gets nerfed, but PvP'rs leave the game when something goes unbalanced for any decent amount of time. It's more damaging to Arenanet, financially, when PvP'rs leave, than when PvE'rs cry.

QFT. Very eloquently put.

Redfeather1975 · Mar 21, 2008, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Why be so mean to PvE people.
It's not like PvP is saintly. It's stale and hung up on strategies that hardly ever change. There is a part of that which in a small way is responsible for why some builds do far too well in PvP.
I heard someone say once that the PvP metagame is it's own worst enemy. In a way it's true.

lutz · Mar 21, 2008, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

Of course not. They already nerfed the pet build I was running when my pet, a living creature, stopped leaving a corpse. Now, they just nerf whatever build I'm running, since I don't have a "pet" any more

All right, I'll bite. Let us examine this step-by-step:

Q. Why are turret rangers the meta?
A. Because they work so well.

Q. Why do turret rangers work so well?
A. Because people aren't ready for the damage spike.

Q. Why aren't people ready for the damage spike?
A1. They don't know what the build does (wait, can't be that, the build's been around...)
A2. They don't have defense (wait, can't be that, everyone brings defense...)
A3. They don't bring the right counters.

In the game of rock-paper-scissors, rock remains the meta only so long as no one starts bringing paper. If paper shows up in games consistently enough, rock stops being the meta, because bringing rock is like asking for a loss. That's when paper becomes the new meta, and people start bringing scissors to counter it. Before long, scissors is the new meta, and people dust off their rocks and go out smashing things

In a healthy gaming environment, that is how the meta evolves. It does not matter how "overpowered" the build is, unless A) it is an "auto-win" or B) there are no counters. There are a few "auto-win" things in Guild Wars, like the Necromancer blood-stealing skills that go through everything (which is partly why so many people hate touch rangers), but with a pool of skills as huge as we have there should be no shortage of counters. Skills should be nerfed only if the build's counters are so few and far between that everyone starts playing the build in the hope of out-spiking the enemy first. Instead of being "the meta," the build becomes "the field." Turret rangers were nowhere near that by definition - there are too many counters for them.

And while we're on the topic of nerfs, why do they have to be made at all? There have been countless complaints about skills that never see any use. As Wail of Doom recently illustrated, ANet is not above changing skill functionality completely. If some new, "overpowered" build rears its ugly head, why not "buff" a few unused skills - by increasing their power, reworking their functionality, or eliminating anomalies - to counter the build? Instead of having "nerfs" demolish the established meta, such "buffs" would put more tools in the "rock-paper-scissors" pool, allowing the meta to balance itself.

Thank god you don't make the skill balances.

There's a build called "balanced". The general rule of thumb is, if it can't be dealt with by balanced in any way, shape or form (and cannot be mitigated), then it is probably overpowered. Examples:

Dervish Spike - Massive enchant removal
Sineptitude

What this essentially means is: if you are forced to spec against a specific build because it is so prevalent and nearly impossible to beat without a spec (e.g. everyone running Rend Enchantments for A/D spike, Patient Spirit for Dervish spike, Monk runners for sineptitude) then it is probably overpowered.

arcanemacabre · Mar 21, 2008, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Why be so mean to PvE people.
It's not like PvP is saintly. It's stale and hung up on strategies that hardly ever change. There is a part of that which in a small way is responsible for why some builds do far too well in PvP.
I heard someone say once that the PvP metagame is it's own worst enemy. In a way it's true.

You think its stale now? Let the game go without updates for a few months. The way this game is designed means a metagame is inevitable. Unfortunately the only counter is constant change. I don't think anyone is to blame, really, but Loki is right that change must happen or else PvPers would simply leave. I may not like a lot of PvPers, but I can't imagine this game without them. They're like the brother you hate, but you would protect them with your life.

Redfeather1975 · Mar 21, 2008, 06:43 AM // 06:43

I don't mind updates arcane. I just like the updates that change something so it's still an option that actually expands the available effective tactics, rather than narrow them down or keep them very limited.
I know it's very hard to do, but sometimes I wonder if the skill team is thinking that far ahead.
When I saw the new skills for EotN, I got angry wondering how on earth they thought some of them would ever fit in. When I see certain buffs I start to really doubt they are thinking that far ahead.

I would like GW2 to have more tactics that rely less on specific builds. So that builds aren't completely restricting what a team can or can't do. Maybe the Emergent Skill system I heard about would allow that in some way. It's no fun when you encounter something you can't counter, because your team's build won't support it, because the only effective tactics available don't support bringing those skills.

Amy Awien · Mar 21, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

For those who don't think, half of these skills were *buffed* in the first place, but it turned out they were overbuffed. Now they've been toned down to more reasonable levels, but they're still better than they were before any updates.

Bullocks, Needling Shot now owns PA and SA. +damage on PA/SA is reduced to insignificance and the reduction in armour penetration makes raw arrow damage as insignificant as unskilled arrows. The increase in recharge severly hurt their usefulness in rapid-fire or MG builds. I'd rather have PA and SA the way they were before the update.

Uber Mass · Mar 21, 2008, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Meh we used guiding weapon to counter Escape way... back to the drawing board!!!!

Sab · Mar 21, 2008, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

All right, I'll bite. Let us examine this step-by-step:

Q. Why are turret rangers the meta?
A. Because they work so well.

Q. Why do turret rangers work so well?
A. Because people aren't ready for the damage spike.

Q. Why aren't people ready for the damage spike?
A1. They don't know what the build does (wait, can't be that, the build's been around...)
A2. They don't have defense (wait, can't be that, everyone brings defense...)
A3. They don't bring the right counters.

Completely missing the point. Turret ranger was a degenerate build that rewarded button mashing - they were too good for how easy they were to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

In the game of rock-paper-scissors, rock remains the meta only so long as no one starts bringing paper. If paper shows up in games consistently enough, rock stops being the meta, because bringing rock is like asking for a loss. That's when paper becomes the new meta, and people start bringing scissors to counter it. Before long, scissors is the new meta, and people dust off their rocks and go out smashing things

In a healthy gaming environment, that is how the meta evolves.

Do you play much PvP? GW should absolutely *not* be rock-paper-scissors, in fact, the whole point of skill balancing is to avoid the R-P-S model. A game should not be won or lost before the gates open, just because Team A's build happens to counter Team B's build. If that happens to a large extent, then Izzy needs to fix the glorified R-P-S game GW has become.

So instead, a healthy gaming environment means there is no rock, paper or scissors as those represent the "extremes," or gimmicks which hard-counter each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

It does not matter how "overpowered" the build is, unless A) it is an "auto-win" or B) there are no counters. There are a few "auto-win" things in Guild Wars, like the Necromancer blood-stealing skills that go through everything (which is partly why so many people hate touch rangers), but with a pool of skills as huge as we have there should be no shortage of counters. Skills should be nerfed only if the build's counters are so few and far between that everyone starts playing the build in the hope of out-spiking the enemy first. Instead of being "the meta," the build becomes "the field." Turret rangers were nowhere near that by definition - there are too many counters for them.

You cannot look at a Turret ranger individually and claim there are too many counters - you need to look at Turret rangers in a team build. Any decent team abusing Turrets will bring Rends, Rigor, Cond/Hex removal and so forth - people aren't stupid enough to say, "oshit they brought blind, just /resign."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

And while we're on the topic of nerfs, why do they have to be made at all? There have been countless complaints about skills that never see any use. As Wail of Doom recently illustrated, ANet is not above changing skill functionality completely. If some new, "overpowered" build rears its ugly head, why not "buff" a few unused skills - by increasing their power, reworking their functionality, or eliminating anomalies - to counter the build? Instead of having "nerfs" demolish the established meta, such "buffs" would put more tools in the "rock-paper-scissors" pool, allowing the meta to balance itself.

Again, R-P-S is bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Bullocks, Needling Shot now owns PA and SA. +damage on PA/SA is reduced to insignificance and the reduction in armour penetration makes raw arrow damage as insignificant as unskilled arrows. The increase in recharge severly hurt their usefulness in rapid-fire or MG builds. I'd rather have PA and SA the way they were before the update.

PA/SA were terrible before - they were outclassed by Sloth Hunter's if you needed a +damage attack. PA/SA has the 1c with no aftercast which is still pretty good with preps.

Amy Awien · Mar 21, 2008, 08:09 AM // 08:09

No, I don't think it's not pretty good, they look pretty meaningless, little more then an expensive IAS eating your skillbar and your energy. If you alternate a regular shot with a 1sec one you have something similar to a regular IAS.

The combination of +damage, armour penetration and the 3 sec recharge set them apart from other 1sec activation skills. With the 4 sec recharge and reduced damage they have nothing setting them apart as a good choice.

Kashrlyyk · Mar 21, 2008, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

..Sure, PvE'rs have a cry when something gets nerfed, but PvP'rs leave the game when something goes unbalanced for any decent amount of time.

Farewell and don´t come back!

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

It's more damaging to Arenanet, financially, when PvP'rs leave, than when PvE'rs cry.

You really have to explain that, because PvE players leave, too! And there are much more PvE players than PvP players. Even if every PvP player left ANet could still run their business. If every PvE player left, ANet goes down.

Metalmaster · Mar 21, 2008, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

To be honest, the current system is fine. PvE gets horribly overpowered pve skills and consumables. You also fight dumb AI enemies, which is generally easy. You just need to learn how to adapt. No matter what skills get nerfed, you should be able to continue easily playing.

This should be posted in every update QQ thread

If you can't beat AI using PvE skills and consumables you are very very bad.

Dronte · Mar 21, 2008, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchblade

rofl this is really updating and nerfing just random stuff
wth with the ranger skills here

anet needs a new key-bored

Lolwut? Hope you are just joking.
AWESOME nerfs, these were all needed, cya bloodspike, no more assadervish nabz. The ranger attacks' nerf are kinda weird, those werent that hard to counter at all.. Only worked in RA tbh-> Spirit bond and gg. Those ranger attacks now useless though.
Magehunter->nothing special, I'm not surprised it costs +1 adrenalin now.
Its all good, good job Anet.

Turbobusa · Mar 21, 2008, 10:22 AM // 10:22

PvPers want a Rock-Rock-Rock game.

OMG they split lets QQ on guru for 3 weeks so that they nerf this build!
I'm tired of hearing "this does not reward skill". You have skills when you know how to counter.
There is no universal defense, therefore you must choose what to counter, and adapt to what you're less ready to face. That makes the game rock/paper/scissors, to a lesser extend.

I mean, if we eventually get to the point where the game is balance (see lod uber defense meta where everyone was saying that the game was balanced, but f*ucking hell it was boring), how many builds will see play? 2? 3? And how many will just be variation of the same build overall? That's bloody boring.

As the above poster said, turret rangers were countered by spirit bond. About everyone takes spirit bond. If not, PS + RoF.

-Loki- · Mar 21, 2008, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

You really have to explain that, because PvE players leave, too! And there are much more PvE players than PvP players. Even if every PvP player left ANet could still run their business. If every PvE player left, ANet goes down.

But PvE players also have a tendency to come back when they have gotten over it. PvP players strive for competition, and when a company shows they are unwilling to act in imbalance, they do not come back. I am, though, talking from people in the game I know. I've known many a PvE player who has left when they were upset with the state of the game, only to come back when they had a chance to stop crying. I have yet to see a PvP player try to make a serious return. If they do, they hang around in a pug guild to have a laugh, but don't actually get back into the game. The returning PvE players buy new expansions, the PvP players don't.

And yes, while it is true that there are many more PvE players than PvP players, PvP players are still a valuable community to Arenanet. If they posed no financial threat to Arenanet if they all stopped playing, Arenanet wouldn't have gone through the trouble of setting up an Automated Tournament System - if they could support the company only off PvE players playing the game, they wouldn't have dedicated resources to such a system, they wouldn't keep balancing the game for PvP. Arenanets actions alone show they are trying to keep the PvP community around, which means Arenanet needs them to stay around. So, again, if some PvE players cry over an update, so be it. If the majority of PvP players leave, it's going to hurt them. A lot.